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Valenvaryon seems unfinished

PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:47 am
by Leonardo
Almost 10 years ago I got an idea of how to improve Valenvaryon as it seems to be somewhat unfinished by Bethesda.

This one notice a few things in-game that I see as inconsistent and what I'm talking about are the Orc worshipper of Malacath.

Once all of them are gone then Valenvaryon seems pretty empty and doesn't have a purpose aside for the Alchemy Master Trainer, which is a Breton that can be found inside the Propolyn Chamber and she sells alchemy equipments and ingredients.

Of course there is a vandering Orc knight, but that's about what it is in Valenvaryon.  I think something more is needed, so that's why I start a discussion about ideas of how to improve Valenvaryon.

Any comments, suggestions are welcome.  Thanks for reading.  :smile:

Re: Valenvaryon seems unfinished

PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 1:38 pm
by dietbob196045
Howdy Leo

Interesting !   I wrote a small simple quest for this to use with Silgrad Tower Mod many moons ago, This is the desciption, the details were not completed nor was it incorporated

I called the quest Nimloth's Revenge

Prompted by reading the Book The Cake and the Diamond to begin a player level 20, after reading the book the player will be prompted to look for Nimloth

Following the referenced locations mentioned in the book, go to temple in Ald'ruhn and speak with Danoso Andrano
( Add dialogue Options for Nimloth, Abelle, and Oediad )

Head to Ald Redaynia  "note" since Ald Redaynia is part of the Thieves Guild Questline I suggest we find Nimloth outside the tower, near Oediad's dead body

Speak with Nimloth, he will give you a brief overview of the incident which lead them to Ald Redaynia (As in Book) and offer a substancial reward if you find the witch
(Abelle) that did this to them.  IE Causing Oediad's weakened condition which lead to his death.  

Once found return to Nimloth  (pick location to meet)
Once you find Abelle Meet Nimloth and then return with Nimloth to Adelle and help him exact his revenge

get reward  (pick something)

My suggestion is change her clothing to Adelle Robe and Adelle Shoes give them some Alchemy + properties which Nimloth allows you to have

Enjoy
Dietbob

Re: Valenvaryon seems unfinished

PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:24 am
by dietbob196045
Another more elaborate idea is to add an extensive underground cavern system which adds more orc followers of Malacath a more eleaborate shrine and in-corporate the Blade of Treachery as a possible object for a quest

Enjoy
Dietbob

Re: Valenvaryon seems unfinished

PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:23 pm
by Leonardo
dietbob196045 wrote:Another more elaborate idea is to add an extensive underground cavern system which adds more orc followers of Malacath a more eleaborate shrine and in-corporate the Blade of Treachery as a possible object for a quest

You know, I actually had a similiar idea and I agree with having a lower level below the ground level, but aside for that my idea is a little different and I was thinking of having a tunnel connection between the Daedric ruin (south of Valenvaryon).  The Daedric ruin is just temporary and the purpose is to have tight security and of course to confuse the enemy exactly where respective headquarters are located.

Also, have a cave near Valenvaryon, which is the entrance to the lower level of Valenvaryon and that's an ancient headquarter of the Nords during their alliance with House Dagoth and the Dwemer.  The Valenvaryon underground is the headquarter of House Dagoth and both of them are now abandonded, so the player will find corpses here and there.  Something like that.

Re: Valenvaryon seems unfinished

PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 3:21 pm
by dietbob196045
Interesting  - Sign me up !


of course 10,000 questions to be asked and answered primarily what is the end goal  Discovery of a lost artifact,  Squelching of a potential House Dagoth Uprising in the Ashlands or some other devious plan

Enjoy
Dietbob

Re: Valenvaryon seems unfinished

PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:05 am
by Leonardo
So, you are intrested to be part to create a mod that's based on my idea.  Of course I'm open for suggestions from anyone else.  :wibble:

If such mod project is gonna to finish I need to ask a question.  Where, on what community site, are we gonna to host such a mod project?

I hope that Fliggerty don't take it as an offense, but seriously GHF is out of question due to the server issue that's been going on for too long.  So.  Which site, Wolflore is also not an option nor is the Fort Elderscrolls site either?

The only community site I can think of is AFK Mods due for being stable and having a decent bug tracker in place.

Re: Valenvaryon seems unfinished

PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:05 am
by dietbob196045
Yes I would help where I can

As far as hosting sites you will know more about that then I  
I would definitely ask around and see if anyone else is interested before trying to get it hosted somewhere and when asking you'll need to have a game plan and goal,
It's a bit easier to get interest when people know what the purpose and goal is.  It's really working out a plan of attack first (discussion)

For example

You want to start a mod project for ( XXXX ) purpose, the end result is ( XXXX )  
The details are then worked out ...the who, what, where, and when.
Is the project based on ES Lore or is it an unknown, if based on Lore what documentation is available to use as references (What  Books)

Just me jabbering

Basically back to my original question   what are you thinking the end result should be ?  If you have references for the "Nord - House Dagoth Alliance"   what are they   I'll read up on it and see what I can come up with for possible results

Enjoy
Dietbob

Re: Valenvaryon seems unfinished

PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:26 pm
by Leonardo
Thanks for asking around, but I don't think that would be necessary since I'm the owner and founder of Sovngarde (I know there isn't much there, but it's a sort of a plan B).

The result for the mod would be shortly after the disappreance of the Dwemer in the battle on Red Mountain.

There is one ES lore reference and I think it is accurate for the mod idea I had for Valenvaryon.

Re: Valenvaryon seems unfinished

PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:14 pm
by dietbob196045
Plan B is sometimes the best option

As for the reference  The War of the First Council -  Five songs of King Wulfharth does mention an alliance with Dagoth Ur because UR promised Shor's Heart (Lorkhan's Heart ) was in Morrowind (Resdayn)  also mentions the alliance with the Orcs, but no mention of alliance with the Dwemer,   (Read the Ash King and the Secret Song)

But we also gleen from this that the alliance was short lived for Dagoth Ur had tricked the Nords  

HOWEVER

It's a good basis for a mod

Enjoy
Dietbob

Re: Valenvaryon seems unfinished

PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:04 am
by Leonardo

Re: Valenvaryon seems unfinished

PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:59 am
by dietbob196045


Yes I have read this - a few times   We have to keep in mind that this is written from the perspective of the Nords - other stories similar to this written from the perspective of Mer vary a little as would be expected - regardless all the major players are still involved, just who did what and why is different to some extent

Dagoth Ur (House Dagoth) - attempting to rebuild Numidium (Akulakhan)
Nords - hoping to take revenge on the Mer and claim Morrowind and re-claim Shor's (Lorkhans) Heart
Orcs - By request of the Ash King to help improve numbers
Dwemer - their, but now gone
Other Mer folk -Vehk, Nerevar  and the others   trying to get Ur to give up the Tools etc etc

And we know what happened

With respect to the Mod Idea most of this is information is irrelevant - except that when the "Hard Core"  lore fanatic's question the possible existence of underground bases, their is sufficient documentation to theorize it is possible

If it is your Intent to modify this Stronghold with underground base and tunnels, finding the corpses of any of these peoples (Less Dwemer) is plausible


Currently as we know the Orcs occupy Valenvaryon and set it up as a shrine to Malacath and Ebernanit is a Dagon Shrine occupied by some dremora

So as of now we have a WHY is it their

A Suggestion - add a small and very old nord ruin (camp) to the area southeast of Valenvaryon   to make a sort of triangle, the tunnel system can connect the 3 areas and converge in the center to form a base headquarters

Now we need to decide the WHAT   - what will we find in this previously undiscovered area  ???


Enjoy
Dietbob

Re: Valenvaryon seems unfinished

PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:50 pm
by Leonardo
dietbob196045 wrote:


Yes I have read this - a few times   We have to keep in mind that this is written from the perspective of the Nords - other stories similar to this written from the perspective of Mer vary a little as would be expected - regardless all the major players are still involved, just who did what and why is different to some extent

Dagoth Ur (House Dagoth) - attempting to rebuild Numidium (Akulakhan)
Nords - hoping to take revenge on the Mer and claim Morrowind and re-claim Shor's (Lorkhans) Heart
Orcs - By request of the Ash King to help improve numbers
Dwemer - their, but now gone
Other Mer folk -Vehk, Nerevar  and the others   trying to get Ur to give up the Tools etc etc

And we know what happened

Yes.  We do know what happen and my idea is a combination of more than one event, in fact it has content for both wars.

1.  The Nords was driving out to the sea by the alliance of both the Chimer and the Dwemer.
2.  The War of the First Council ended with the Battle of Red Mountain and a direct result of this event was the birth of the Tribunal.

dietbob196045 wrote:With respect to the Mod Idea most of this is information is irrelevant - except that when the "Hard Core"  lore fanatic's question the possible existence of underground bases, their is sufficient documentation to theorize it is possible

I would say the opposite as much infromation is relevant when there is a combination of both major events in the history of Morrowind.

dietbob196045 wrote:If it is your Intent to modify this Stronghold with underground base and tunnels, finding the corpses of any of these peoples (Less Dwemer) is plausible

Currently as we know the Orcs occupy Valenvaryon and set it up as a shrine to Malacath and Ebernanit is a Dagon Shrine occupied by some dremora

So as of now we have a WHY is it their

A Suggestion - add a small and very old nord ruin (camp) to the area southeast of Valenvaryon   to make a sort of triangle, the tunnel system can connect the 3 areas and converge in the center to form a base headquarters

Now we need to decide the WHAT   - what will we find in this previously undiscovered area  ???

That's something I already thought about and I don't see the reason to have a camp close by, instead I wanted to use the shell of the corpse of a silt strider (on the West side of Valenvaryon when having the Daedric ruin in the back) as a secret tunnel entrance.  Of course there could a camp next the silt strider shell as the Ashlanders will often use as a shelter when hunting for gems or herding their guars.

Also, the Ashlander hestitate to enter Valenvaryon due to the Orc worshippers there.


The cave of Valenvaryon is the entrance of the Nords headquarter during their invasion of Vvardenfell, which come to be the last time the Nords tried to conquer Vvardenfell.  Remember, there were a lot vegetation at that time as the were no blight present and the vegeation in that area could easily be used as a cover for the *ancient* cave entrance to the headquarter of the Nords, so that's why I wanted to have a cave entrance there West of Valenvaryon (facing North) and fairly close to the sea.

Re: Valenvaryon seems unfinished

PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:26 pm
by dietbob196045
What I mean by irrelevant is that we are now in this time frame under these conditions- all that was in the past. the relevancy is that we know those event's took place
and the purposed underground is something that can be incorporated without without breaking lore simply because it is plausible that it could exist.

Something like this perhaps (of course more detail to be decided)

All that is easily worked out - the question still remains as to what the player will discover, what rewards will they gain from the discovery.  That is what gets players interested in using a quest mod is the rewards - money, power, recognition, something for them to go after - again just something to ponder

I would also suggest a higher level mod maybe around level 30 or 40

It's a good Idea Leo - and it's yours, as I said I would be more then happy to help with it and be part of its creation

So I say lets break down with some more definitive details and hash them out

Enjoy
Dietbob

Re: Valenvaryon seems unfinished

PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 5:07 pm
by Leonardo
Fair enough.  I understand what you mean.

The reward for the player could be something (I admit I haven't thought much about that) useful, something that makes the player to visit the Valenvaryon underground now and then in-game.

Now that you mention it about what kind of a reward the player would get, got me thinking about an old idea and I know someone posted about it on the old BSF forum, but I doubt the thread are still there as it was almost 10 years ago that thread was posted.  After I went through 90 pages I gave up looking for it, so I might have miss it since I don't remember which member posted that thread back in 2010/11.  Probably later in late 2011 or in 2012.

Anyway, as I recall it the idea was to let the player fill a colossal soul gem that has unlimited soul value, the same soul value that Azura's Star has, except for one thing the colossal soul gem is consumed every time when using it after capturing a soul.  The colossal soul gem looks similiar to what a grand soul gem with a greater soul gem on top of it.

I think I have a picture of how it looks like somewhere, but having a lot of pictures it will take some time to find it.  So, I'm gonna to take a picture in my current game and post the picture later.


In order to fill a colossal soul gem would require somone with a high enchanting skill to do that and the Dwemer does have high enchanting skill hence for being mentioned as they once were great enchanters by the Ashlanders.

Once the player have solved a riddle or a puzzle (can be anything) the player can start to fill a colossal soul gem anytime provided that the player has an empty colossal soul gem in the inventory, which can only be bought from one of the Dwemer ghosts in Valenvaryon underground.

The process requires 3 filled grand soul gems (400 pts) and only a grand soul gem that has the soul of a Golden Saints is suitable.  Sleepers are not strong enough or natural despite for having the same soul value of 400 pts as a grand soul gem that's filled with a Golden Saint.

The recommended level to embark this mod is to be at least higher than level 20, because the player should be able to fill a grand soul gem that has a soul of a Golden Saint at level 20 without having too much trouble meaning not being killed.

I also want to comment your picture.  The picture looks similiar to the Cave of Valenvaryon I mention earlier and where the cave entrance is located, so your picture looks good to me.

Re: Valenvaryon seems unfinished

PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 7:44 pm
by dietbob196045
Anyway, as I recall it the idea was to let the player fill a colossal soul gem that has unlimited soul value, the same soul value that Azura's Star has, except for one thing the colossal soul gem is consumed every time when using it after capturing a soul.  The colossal soul gem looks similiar to what a grand soul gem with a greater soul gem on top of it.

If I get your meaning, the soul gem is not reusable like Azura's Star.  But has unlimited holding as with the mentioned Azura's Star
Would it also have the ability to trap Humanoid souls ?

In order to fill a colossal soul gem would require somone with a high enchanting skill

For something like this I would say 100 skill level is a must  !   ( I could see 90 as a skill level if you think maxed out is too much) -for later discussion I suppose

Once the player have solved a riddle or a puzzle

Riddles and Puzzles I like  , no X marks the spot, figure it out !!!

This also brings me to think about finding the secret entry, what do we propose to do to give the player incentive or notion to even look for a secret entry
it's possible to come across it randomly that being the case I would like to suggest a  secondary doorway  IE you find this hole in the ground and decide to explore it
but once inside you find a doorway with a special "magical barrier" < (example)  which requires some "Item" to open   I say this thinking of the doorways used in Skyrim where you need a claw to unlock the door, or Bloodskal Cave where you need to use a sword - something similar to this - now the player has something to look for in order to gain entry into this mysterious place that has untold fortune inside or death  - either way is good for me.

Additionally if the Soul Gem is used to gather (draw) the souls of the dead located inside this tunnel system (which could be the reason for this gem in the first pace)
-this is another suggestion.  Using such gem for this purpose might allow for a greater reward further into the depths.

Funny thing is after watching Infinity Wars I had an Idea to make the Infinity Gauntlet using wraithguard and adding gems to it of various color   and imbibing each of the stones with a powerful spell..... I don't know if that would be something the Dwemer could have been working on in secret  :)

As far as the Colossal Soul Gem, those details can be sorted out as well...  but I like it

The map I just did it prior to your previous post, we must have been on the same wave or close to it

EDIT QUESTION:  As far as the tunnel systems how many levels you think we might like to go 3, 4 or more ?

Enjoy
Dietbob

Re: Valenvaryon seems unfinished

PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:56 am
by Leonardo
Sorry, for not posting my reply sooner.

dietbob196045 wrote:If I get your meaning, the soul gem is not reusable like Azura's Star.  But has unlimited holding as with the mentioned Azura's Star
Would it also have the ability to trap Humanoid souls ?

Yes.  The colossal soul gem has the ability to trap humanoid souls, which I think is wrong with Azura's Star because both Azura and Meridia, in Oblivion and Skyrim, are the only Daedric Lords who dislike the dark cults.

dietbob196045 wrote:For something like this I would say 100 skill level is a must  !   ( I could see 90 as a skill level if you think maxed out is too much) -for later discussion I suppose

I would say over +75 in the enchant skill is recommended, but having a higher skill than 85 definitely improve the odds.

dietbob196045 wrote:Riddles and Puzzles I like  , no X marks the spot, figure it out !!!

This also brings me to think about finding the secret entry, what do we propose to do to give the player incentive or notion to even look for a secret entry
it's possible to come across it randomly that being the case I would like to suggest a  secondary doorway  IE you find this hole in the ground and decide to explore it
but once inside you find a doorway with a special "magical barrier" < (example)  which requires some "Item" to open I say this thinking of the doorways used in Skyrim where you need a claw to unlock the door, or Bloodskal Cave where you need to use a sword - something similar to this - now the player has something to look for in order to gain entry into this mysterious place that has untold fortune inside or death  - either way is good for me.

A riddle or a puzzle could be what the player need to solve in order to gain access.  How about using the House Dagoth cup as a key, similar to what purpose a dragon claw has in Skyrim?

dietbob196045 wrote:Additionally if the Soul Gem is used to gather (draw) the souls of the dead located inside this tunnel system (which could be the reason for this gem in the first pace)
-this is another suggestion.  Using such gem for this purpose might allow for a greater reward further into the depths.

Funny thing is after watching Infinity Wars I had an Idea to make the Infinity Gauntlet using wraithguard and adding gems to it of various color   and imbibing each of the stones with a powerful spell..... I don't know if that would be something the Dwemer could have been working on in secret  :)

As far as the Colossal Soul Gem, those details can be sorted out as well...  but I like it

A colossal soul gem could be in the inventory of a dead Nord warrior and the player need to find the corpse in the cave, otherwise the player cannot go further.

Also, the colossal soul gem needs to be in the players inventory in order to find an unique key (cannot be detected by using the Detect Key spell) to open the door to Valenvaryon underground.

That's similiar to what I and Vincent discussed on TAL.

dietbob196045 wrote:The map I just did it prior to your previous post, we must have been on the same wave or close to it

I think you are a mind reader hence for posting a map that's very close to what I had in mind.

dietbob196045 wrote:EDIT QUESTION:  As far as the tunnel systems how many levels you think we might like to go 3, 4 or more ?

Something like that and I think 3-4 levels, maybe 2-3 levels, is realistic.

Re: Valenvaryon seems unfinished

PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:02 pm
by dietbob196045
Super

I like it all and agree about the soul gem

Another question regarding caves, I assume we want to use mold cave for this since that is the cave type primarily used in the ashland region

I ask a lot of question about this because I have several cave systems from silgrad tower and other mods that were never used

It's a good start
Now we need to find other interested parties

AND still come up with an idea for the end results


Enjoy
Dietbob

Re: Valenvaryon seems unfinished

PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:17 am
by Leonardo
Not necessarily the mold cave type.  Because keep in mind that Valenvaryon cave is from a time where there were no blight in the Ashlands Region, so I think the most common cave type could be used.

Of course if you have a couple a finished caves, but never used before, that's built with the mold cave type then why not using that, otherwise it would be throwing away a good modding resource for no valid reason.  :D

Do you mean other modders when saying "other interested parties"?  :chinscratch:

The main purpose of this mod is let the player come and go whenever the player needs to buy another colossal soul gem and/or let the Dwemer ghost offer the enchanting service to the player for a special price (a lots of filled soul gems).

Re: Valenvaryon seems unfinished

PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:14 am
by dietbob196045
Yes, I mean interested parties    -  more people makes a party   lets have some fun   lol


Yeah Mold Cave is common in that region,   I wouldn't change it, regardless of the time period   and I do have some cave systems (never used in other mods)
I'll have to look at them but I am sure they will work with little modification.   I'm Fixin (that is Texan for "going to") get some sleep, I just started an overnight shift midnight to 9 am US time so my sleep is all messed up for a while
when I get back on I will send some images of a few of the cave's for your viewing pleasure

Enjoy
Dietbob

Re: Valenvaryon seems unfinished

PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:00 am
by Leonardo
I read through your "This is what I do when I'm bored" thread and the Dwemer archs looks good in a Valenvaryon mod with a little adjustment of course.

Re: Valenvaryon seems unfinished

PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:09 am
by dietbob196045
I think that can be done easily enough

I owe you some cave systems    (been a bit behind) plus my thought processes change by the minute    lol

Have you made any progress on sorting out a host site and or finding other modders who might be interested in helping with this?


Enjoy
Dietbob

Re: Valenvaryon seems unfinished

PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:56 am
by Leonardo
There is no need to rush things, so take your time.  :D

Well, it depends what you mean and if you mean what hosting site then I would say why not GHF, because I'm quite certain that Fliggerty will sooner rather than later finish Mod History 2.0.

As for other people, I know one who might be interested and that's MD plus a few other modders.

Re: Valenvaryon seems unfinished

PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:34 am
by dietbob196045
I am taking my time :)

Other stuff to do you know  

But I had modified the siltstrider husk to allow entry and thought it would be a good secret entrance to the underground portions of the stronghold  

Any updates to discuss or think on ?

Enjoy
Dietbob

Re: Valenvaryon seems unfinished

PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:03 am
by Leonardo
Good stuff.  :D

That's exactly what I had in mind when using the shell of a dead siltstrider as a secret entrance.  :wibble:


I am in a hurry and need to logout within a minute or two, but I'll be back later today or tomorrow.

Re: Valenvaryon seems unfinished

PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:07 am
by dietbob196045
No worries

First off    I understand it is your Birthday  So I wish you a Happy Joyous Day

I did however start work on the interior of the Base Valenvaryon stronghold   Level 1 I suppose we can call it, I never really worked with the stronghold (IE in-strongruin) parts before,  I did notice with this particular interior that there is a limit of pieces and a lot of them actually don't work well with each other, so I am going to make some pieces for it.   Walls with cracks in them, Halls,  Rooms, etc etc

Also I thought would be a nice touch since the ruin is primarily covered in ash to make some ash mounds and place them under and around the interior shutters as to show the ash had poured into the ruin.

I'll update later today, not very busy today in RL as usual  :)


Enjoy
Dietbob