Age catching up to me...

[Miserina]

Those two concepts should be mutually exclusive.  You may partake of alcoholic beverages OR you may vote.  Choose one.

[Skydye]

I vote for the alcohol.

[peachykeen]

Those two concepts should be mutually exclusive.  You may partake of alcoholic beverages OR you may vote.  Choose one.

Latest Headlines:
While alcohol sales continue to skyrocket, the response at the polls today has turned out to be less than phenomenal.

Our research indicates that with the new restrictions allowing you to vote or purchase alcohol, almost 90% of the free world has chosen to get drunk and leave the politics up to the 10% who are convinced they need to be "responsible."

The United States' presidential election wrapped up just days ago, with a record low of 37 votes. During the week-long period during which polls were open, Smirnoff announced record sales, exceeding even the first day after the Prohibition was repealed.

Continued on page 4-20

[Deathstalker13]

lol.

Guess I'm voting then. I hat the smell, taste, and aftereffects-from-a-large-intake of alcohol.

[melian]

Over here we get legal permission to vote and drink at the same time (and when I write it like that - it looks even scarier than the US system! )

[Wolf]

At 18 you also have to register for the draft.  So during some war people thought that if they were old enough to go to war they were old enough to vote.  So the voting age was changed to 18.

[Elaura]

I wish we could use biology as a guide.  It would take some doing to get things back to the natural order, but extending childhood into one's twenties by making up multiple, arbitrary dates at which time a person is legally responsible enough to [fill in the blank] is ludicrous and contrary to the good order of society.  Who could possibly have thought that if a 15 year old can drive a car, bear and father children, and hold down a job, that fifteen year olds are not responsible enough to smoke, drink, or serve in the military?  Who decided that at eighteen, you are old enough to serve in the military, vote, smoke, and be tried as an adult in all 50 states, but not yet old enough to drink or rent a car?

I say revert the legal age of everything (except voting) back to fifteen, with the caveat that the parents of a fifteen-eighteen year olds are equally responsible and culpable for the "young adult's" actions.  As far as voting goes, I believe there should be some rather restrictive reforms.  Currently, we have voters in the US who have absolutely no interest in government except which party pays them more for their vote.  Among most taxpaxers (read property owners), voting/running for government office is hardly different than voting/running for prom king/queen.  I think the only people who should be allowed to vote are those who have either served in law enforcement, fire fighting, EMS or the military or who own property in the United States and live here at least 6 months out of the year, but that's a topic for another thread.

[Miserina]

An Australian confidant of mine came up with the idea of a bureaucracy done right.  Regardless of age, you can apply for your "Adulthood license."  You go through a one year trial period where you're watched and monitored and if you pass, you have all the rights of a functioning adult.  Once you have that, you can apply for your License to Partake of Alcohol and your License to Operate a Motor Vehicle and your License to Bear Children.

Interestingly, in the situation it came up in regards to, a tabletop game I'm in, my character actually has the power to implement something like this, and the countless thousands of hours of spare manpower to make it effective.  It'd be an interesting system to see in practice I think.  You can get your Licenses revoked for various offenses.  Lose your licenses if you abuse the rights bestowed by them.  The special case being that if you commit a particularly egregious crime, you can get your Adulthood License revoked and you lose all rights not granted to you by an adult.  It would require a world with far less prejudice than ours though, for a grown man to defer to the judgment of a wise-beyond-their-years twelve year old with the backing of law.  It only really works if you have tons of time to invest into each and every case, so it's a sort of flawed concept for a utopia.

Edit: Just to clarify before someone starts shouting "Off Topic!" I started the topic, but my birthday is over, so if this winds up becoming yet another political discussion, which are always among our most interesting if also the most dangerously provocative, then I'm perfectly fine with it.  It's nice to to talk about serious issues with intelligent people.

[Elaura]

Yep.  Nearly every form of mandated utopia falls short in the enforcement stage.  I'm curious, if you were to implement something like that, how would you socialize people?  For instance, currently drivers get learner's permits and take driver's education.  Would there be a low-alcohol content permit or classes to take on how to drink responsibly before getting the license?  How exactly can you train someone to be a parent *before* they are actually given a real child?  SHould there be periods of suspension (like suspended drivers' licenses) for people who have temporary mental health issues like puberty and menopause?

[Miserina]

Some very interesting questions.  I doubt we'd go so far as to mandate mental health suspensions for a lot of those things, but it's something to consider.  See, from the perspective of the game, we have the unique occurrence where we can potentially monitor everyone constantly without really sacrificing their privacy in some ways.  No real human would ever be watching you, but there'd be a sort of Big... Sister thing going, where there is a higher power which is judging you impartially.  Looking at it from the outside, it seems impossible, but we think we can make it work in the game.  Shadow City has a lot of residents, and it seems like we're trying to make the government out of the scraps of a dozen flawed utopia concepts with a council/dictatorship on top.

It'll be interesting to see how it works out, or doesn't.  For what it's worth, my character is one of the best Civil Engineers on the planet, so we've at least got a shot.


Looking at it as anything other than a hypothetical situation for this game though, I can't see something like this EVER working out in real life.  The idea is that you have exactly as much responsibility as you can handle, but by the time you're forty getting denied your Adulthood permit for the seventeenth time, you're probably just about fed up with the system.  This is where the flawed utopia thing comes in... to truly enforce it, we'd have to take care of unsavory elements like that with stuff like banishment and confinement.

[Dragon_Lance]

Marriage at the age of twelve? I do wonder if the Medieval days are coming back, with of course, the lack of a king to rule them..

The thing about allowing this type of mandate, is to allow the children to grow up too fast for their own good (call me old fashioned). If they grow up too fast by allowing these type of laws to pass, there is a potential grounds to miss out and attempt to take some sort of retribution to grasp what these children (as they are now adults) have missed in their youth. Thus, there may be more crimes in the long run, based on the psychosis of the adult reverting back to the childhood while pretending to be a grown up. Does this make any sense?

[Miserina]

It does, but the idea is that you do have to get a yearly evaluation.  There's not necessarily a minimum age, it's simply based on how mature you are.  Whether or not you're responsible to make the decisions that are required of you for you to take care of yourself.

Myself under that system, I'm fairly sure that I would have picked up an Adulthood License by the time I was six, and then I'd have lost it by my thirteenth birthday.  One of the weird quirks of this system is that you never actually have to grow up.  You choose when to take on responsibilities and privileges, and it's designed to make you want it, but you don't ever have to take them.  Again, it's a utopian system in that the real world doesn't have the resources to support this kind of thing.  Say you want to be a painter, but you don't see any reason to ever get a car or a license to get drunk.  You don't particularly want kids, you just want to paint all day and night.  Or you don't wanna work, you just wanna bang on your drums all day.

The system allows for that.  It allows for the thirty year old man who has a small apartment where he lives as a ward of the state which provides him with food and a modest stipend for whatever he wants to do with himself.  He's not any less of a person, he still goes out for coffee with his friends and such, maybe he can even still get married, he's just not legally responsible for himself.

The idea is that in order to get it work, we do psych evaluations in the first place, and we set up an atmosphere such that the people who come to live in this city WANT to improve themselves, and earn greater success for themselves.  They're hard working ethical individuals who have hopes and dreams, and this is the New World where they come true.  

Honestly, it's like a more regulated version of the normal world.  The part that makes it properly Utopian is that even if you're a good for nothing bum, the city will take care of you.  It's the happy-communist version of Rapture from BioShock.  Live and let live.

[Elaura]

Human nature is so diverse, majority rule is really the only way to keep a society together.  It works as long as there is still somewhere else for splinter groups to go, but the end is nigh when folks have no control over the way they think they want to live and they have not the right or ability to move somewhere else.  The US was built by people who didn't like the environment they were living in, felt they couldn't change the place, so they moved to a new place.  That is probably where most governments fall short; they start restricting the ability of citizens to move from place to place.  It's one thing for another country to say, "Nah, we don't want you here."  But it is quite another thing for your own country to say, "No, you can't leave."  One of the very first things dictators do when they get into power is restrict the movement of citizens.

Anyway, not sure how that applies to your game, except that you should expect some dissent and make sure the majority of the "people" in the society you control agree with you.

As far as children growing up "too fast" . . . that term is usually applied by parents who feel some part of their own childhood was taken from them before they were ready.  Personally, that's why I think the opinion of a parent about the child should be weighted heavily as to what extent childhood should continue.  I think Miserina's society will see a lot fewer 25 year olds living at home dependent on Mom and Dad.  By that time, a kid should be planning how he/she is going to take care of Mom and Dad when they are done working.

[peachykeen]

I liked Rapture, until it started leaking. -.-

Tangent: I don't think you can grow up too fast, but you can miss things you shouldn't. Growing up happens, but there are things that should happen first. To drop to extremes, you should have your first kiss before you have sex, you should drive your first car before you're in your first drive-by, you should learn your limits before you get drunk the first time, you should know what you're doing before you use any drugs.

Most parents refuse to let their kids grow up. They refuse to admit that things happen. They try to hold them back.
Kids grow up. Time goes. No ignorant, idealistic parent can stop that. The most they can do is hold their child back as society progresses around them. And that will do nothing but ruin the child's life.
Few parents realize they need to educate their children in things that actually happen. Yes, they spend 6-8 hours a day learning their reading, writing and arithmetic. Now what about the other 16 hours of the day? You know, those 4 evening hours and 12 night hours when they go out, smoke, drink, fuck and run from the cops? Those are the hours you're supposed to be teaching us why we shouldn't smoke, to carefully give us one drink so we know the effects and know what we can handle, tell us what happens when you have sex, tell us why the cops chase you and what happens when you get caught. And not in the "don't do it", birds-and-bees, that's-bad cursory way. Your child will find out, from you or from experience. You can't stop that, but you can control where they learn.

To many of the parents in the "they grow up so fast" group blind themselves. They try so hard to hold their children back that they become blind to the bits of progress their children make. The child is, effectively, left to group up on their own. The best support they can hope for is an adult friend or benefactor (of the good, legitimate, not pedophile kind) to help guide them. But they usually get their friends. Friends in the same mess. Friends who spend their time smoking behind school and roam the streets. The parents refuse to help their child grow up. They try to hold back time.

And one day, it will all come crashing down on both parties. Without fail.

[Dragon_Lance]

The system allows for that.  It allows for the thirty year old man who has a small apartment where he lives as a ward of the state which provides him with food and a modest stipend for whatever he wants to do with himself.  He's not any less of a person, he still goes out for coffee with his friends and such, maybe he can even still get married, he's just not legally responsible for himself.

This is my point, without the need to feel responsible for himself, society makes up the rules for him. And since society makes the rules of an 'utopian' nature, he can do no wrong because he is not responsible for his own actions, therefore allowing him to be able to do and commit excessive amounts of crime without ever having to accept punishment. "It was not his fault, but ours". How is one to truly grow up in this respect?

[Elaura]

"Civilized" society screwed up when it started eliminating rites of passage.  Those were artificial lines too, but not even fathers and mothers could deny them.  More recently, by making it so important for every child to have the opportunity to go to college, we've ignored the fact that regardless of whether or not a kid has a degree, he/she still needs a trade.  Still needs to know how to build and maintain relationships, still needs to know how to rear children and keep a house and family, still needs to know how to talk to people and negotiate for goods and services.  The details change over time, but the major concepts don't.

[Miserina]

No no, there are still consequences for their actions.  For one, their friends will probably laugh at them when they get pissed they can't have a drink and the bartender makes them go stand in the corner.

You do not have an Adult License, you are a CHILD and you will be treated as such.

[Dragon_Lance]

I tend to agree, Elaura, with your stand-point, but our society is not that much different, it is just based on an age limitation.

Peer pressure then would be the moving force behind encouragement? That may have positive affects, but could also have drastic negative affects as well. It could cause one to never leave his home and become a leech off of society. I suppose that the only way to absolve this situation would be to eliminate all government aid? Unless, of course there is an entitlement based a special concerns causing labels to be placed on individuals.

[Gnomey]

Id say that letting people mess up their own lives as they like is a fine, even admirable ideal. That's freedom. Allowing them to mess up other people's lives, though, is bad, however you put it. I don't think that a lot of murderers would care much about what their friends thought, really. Then again, I'm not too sure whether a ten-year-old cereal killer would be any more innocent than an irresponsible adult who commits the same crimes.

As for children growing up too quickly, I think giving them the ability to take on responsibilities is good, as long as there's as little pressure as possible. If the child wants to grow up more, he can do so. If he wants to take a step back, he simply has to get his licence revoked. If the child makes the wrong decision, that is frankly his mistake. The parents can do their best to insure the child isn't in too much of a hurry, but frankly I think children should be allowed to take responsibility, and if they do they should be held responsible for the results. If they mess up, they've simply shown that they need to stay as children a little longer.

As for making things legal, my first drink of alcohol was, I believe, supplied by my great aunt when I was three. I drank wine, often once a week, in small measures and have never once gotten drunk. I see alcoholic drinks as drinks with a unique taste that I happen to enjoy, but which shouldn't be enjoyed in large measures. I don't enjoy alcohol when taken in large amounts, as that does no favours for the taste. I admit I came close to getting drunk once, a few years ago, but because of that I have learned my limit, and am more watchful of it now. I think I'm a lot less likely to become an alcoholic than somebody who hasn't had a drop all their lives and never experienced it in action until they take their first swig of a bottle. I also think that, frankly, had I gotten drunk, one embarrassing and unfortunate event in my childhood would have been much more favourable to such an event at a time when the law supplies me with all, or most, of the responsibilities of a citizen of my country. There's less I could have messed up in my childhood than I can mess up now.

[Miserina]

Hahahahahahahahha.

I have that shirt, Gnomey.  Ten year old "Cereal Killer."  Skull and a crossbones with spoons over a bowl.  

Ahem... yes, the rest of your serious post is very serious and correct too though.  I'd post a huge comment and argue this or that with you, but across three different forums and realtime chat now, I'm having trouble keeping up.  Heh... this is nice.

[Wolf]

Ahem... yes, the rest of your serious post is very serious and correct too though.  I'd post a huge comment and argue this or that with you, but across three different forums and realtime chat now, I'm having trouble keeping up.  Heh... this is nice.

I think GHF is having a large scale political and lifestyle debate.

As for drinking ages, Gnomey just said he has never been drunk before.  He has also been alowed to have one since he was 3.  If kids are taught how to drink mabye we would not have half the drinking problems we do know.  Parents can try to keep teenagers, and some children away from drinking, but the mannor of the fact is they will do it anyways.  My parents still get a little mad when I curse .  When im 21 and moved out of the house do you think I will not be cursing, drinking too much, gambaling at all?  No one is that moral and if parents knew that, mabye they would be able to teach children how to drink responsibly.  Drinking responsibly is much more important than hiding it from children all threwout there lives, up until they move out.