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Morrowind has stopped responding

PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 1:23 pm
by Morgoth Bauglir
In the 10 years I'm trying to play Morrowind (+Tribunal & Bloodmoon), I never managed to finish the Main Quest (did manage the two expansion packs) because I always get the error "Morrowind is not responding" sooner or later ... then the little window reporting the error crashes as well. I've bought 3 versions of Morrowind over the past years (3 x Separate Pack, 1 x 4 Disc Pack (With CS on a separate disc), and GoTY). The ruddy thing crashed in XP, Vista, and Windows 7 (all the most powerful x64 versions).

I just spend 3 weeks re-installing Morrowind, Tribunal, and Bloodmoon 5 times while following carefully the advice of several sites on what mods to use ... can't even create a character ... Morrowind has stopped reponsing.

Any ideas would be welcome at this point. The best a friend of mine could come up with so far (he's a US Navy IT Expert) is that God hates me.

Re: Morrowind has stopped responding

PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:32 pm
by Drakkmore
Play it on vanilla, and do not install yo your program files folder?

Re: Morrowind has stopped responding

PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 4:00 pm
by latendresse76
I was going to ask what kind of graphics card i had MW lock up with my old ATI pretty regular after long plays no CTD just freeze

Re: Morrowind has stopped responding

PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 6:43 pm
by Morgoth Bauglir
Got a dual ATI HD 4800 Series graphic card setup. Doubt it's that, I switched them for a while with a dual NVidia card, didn't make any difference. In the old days, I studied computer sciences at Antwerp University (amongst other things), and though it's been several decades, I'm pretty sure the problem is not the hardware.

CS crashes as well, same error. So does TESTool (not the merge limit) and MWSE and ReOrderMods can't even make a ".ini" file.

Morrowind and its additional packs can't even be uninstalled anymore.

I think the problem is somewhere deep in the x86/x64 architecture. Although I keep all files neatly in their correct directories, all these programmes crashing from the same directory make it weird. Since I can't fully uninstall, my Morrowind Setup does not allow me to reinstall a clean copy in any other directory. The only possibility I see is buy a new computer as I can't format the HDD where TESIII is currently installed.

Problem is that any new system is bound to be x64 as well and I really don't dare try out Morrowind on Win8.

Couple of years ago I managed to get the max amount of mods installed (without BSA tricks) and I even found a way around the TESTool bug (though I can't remember what). Then the error started appearing after some Windows 7 Ultimate x64 updates; that's why I think the OS is responsible.

Would love to hear any other ideas though as I can't get rid of the OS (I work from home and this network is connected to some rather large mainframes around the world).

Re: Morrowind has stopped responding

PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:13 pm
by Leonardo
Have you tried to restore Windows to an earlier system point?  :chinscratch:

If so and you can't format the HDD Morrowind is installed then try either of this methods.

Download Partition Wizard
Reboot your computer with Windows CD/DVD inserted into a CD/DVD device and run Windows installation program.  Once it's started then format the HDD from there.  Usually it should work in most cases.

If you tried Partition Wizard, Windows CD/DVD and nothing is working then press WinLogo+R to bring up the run a program command prompt and type cmd then press return, which will start a new DOS session IIRC and type cd\<HDD-letter> (cd\d: if D is the partition where Morrowind is installed) I think.

Re: Morrowind has stopped responding

PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 8:19 pm
by Elaura
We discovered early on when we got Windows 7 machines that you cannot install pre-Vista games in *any* system directories because of some sort of permission issue.  Windows "protects" files in system created directories and prevents "stranger-danger" programs from writing to them.

There are certain things you can try after the fact, like running these older programs as administrator and turning off DEP and UAC, but this doesn't always work.  The recommended workaround is to install to a user-defined directory such as C:\Games\  Since this directory isn't "protected", the programs usually run fine.

In order to uninstall Morrowind and other programs which won't run because of Nanny-Windows, you'll have to do some registry edits. I can't (in good conscience) try to guide you through that process because I'm not a good enough teacher not to lead you astray, but there are tutorials out there.

For the purposes of this post, "system created directories" includes, but is not limited to: My documents, Program Files, Program Files (x86), and possibly any directory created inside your User Profile, whether by you or by Windows.

Re: Morrowind has stopped responding

PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:04 pm
by latendresse76
I'm actually running Windows 7 Ultimate x64, the first thing i did upon finishing install was to turn off the UAC (User Accounts) -> Change User Accounts Control settings -> Never Notify

I may have done a few other gut Windows things that i'm not remembering i also haven't updated in a while because i have found that their hot fixes like to cause more issues than they solve.

I have MW installed where it wants to be installed as in the "D:\Program Files (x86)\Bethesda Softworks\Morrowind" and have quite a few hours in to my current game. I do also have a hand full of installs in other locations just how i roll, D: is my primary drive for the Windows 7 Ultimate x64 i have an XP64 on the C: but they are just partitions of the same disk.

If you want to do a total uninstall then you uninstall make sure the folders are gone and then open Regedit and search for Morrowind and delete all the come up there then to be a bunch and you have to get the right ones for it to let you choose an install location again if you miss the wrong ones it will go to the standard location so that is why all is the best bet though you should also uninstall the CS.

But

Really you should just be able to copy the install as in the Morrowind folder to a new location that is in a base folder such as C:\games\morrowind or C:\games\Bethesda Softworks\Morrowind and play from there MGE shouldn't care it freaks out when i start one of my modding installs and i have to shut it off and they are no where near each other on a totally different drive I think i have 5 installs on three different drives right now and that is a low for me

Re: Morrowind has stopped responding

PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:40 am
by Morgoth Bauglir
Thanks for all the advice.

I'm currently trying to get rid of Morrowind completely and also Oblivion (installed that in 2010, wanted to play that after Morrowind ...)

In response to some suggestions: User Accounts are turned off, I always operate as System Administrator or even Trusted Installer. Windows Restore is not possible due to an intricate safety facility at the network here which makes both backups and clones of entire HDDs, for that reason, repartitioning a HDD is also not an option. The network is currently operating 19 x 2 TB HDDs so I got enough room left for a fresh install in a "non-system directory".

Installing in a "system directory" might very well be the problem; since I've been tinkering with my Morrowind installation yesterday, even the computer clock went on the fritz. I'll attempt a fresh install of Morrowind (and who knows, maybe in a couple of years even Oblivion which I got 3 times as well due to simply being plain stupid and having forgotten I had already bought it ... twice) in a new "The Elder Scrolls Directory".

Now it's just a matter of getting rid of this installation. TES Construction Set, Wilderness Mod and Oblivion refuse to go ... gonna get out my knife and dive into the registry ... wabbit hunting.

Thanks everybody.

Re: Morrowind has stopped responding

PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:30 am
by Elaura
I wish you luck!  I'm sure you know to back up your registry before going down the rabbit hole.

BTW, running your computer as admin isn't the same with Windows 7 and 8.  It really doesn't help with running programs aside from not getting that dumb "You need to have administrator privileges" popup whenever you try to change a system setting.  By running the program as admin, I mean right clicking on the .exe, selecting "Properties" and then clicking on the "Compatibility" tab.  You should have a radio button at the bottom to choose "Run this program as administrator"

There are other little tweaks and tips to help you run MW on a newer operating system than it was built for, but you need to have the game up and running before they will help at all.

Let us know how it turns out!

Re: Morrowind has stopped responding

PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:04 am
by Morgoth Bauglir
Cannons to the left of him, cannons to the right; into the rabbit hole he jumped without backup.

Installing it in a "non-system directory" seems to have done a lot of good. I also kept the Data folder intact so I can copy it without having to reinstall all mods (some needed reinstalling though).

Morrowind Graphics Enhancer appears to have a quarrel with Windows 7 Ultimate x64; it Morrowind to crash. This might be due to some software that altered my OS at a fundamental level (company software). I had someone fix that now.

I'll keep you posted.

Thanks once again for all the great advice; should have asked years ago ... silly me.

Re: Morrowind has stopped responding

PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:54 am
by Jac
If it's MGE that's causing a crash, try MGE XE instead. It works just fine with Windows 7 64-bit, but you may need to run the UI as an administrator. Elaura and I use it without any issues.

Re: Morrowind has stopped responding

PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:17 pm
by Morgoth Bauglir
Victory is Mine !!!

Couldn't have done it without your help ... actually, before your replies came in, I was about to give up.

Ladies and Gentlemen; my thanks.

Finally, Morgoth Bauglir, the Evil Overlord of Pillow Sales can roam the countryside in search of new, fluffy pillows ... to collect, sort, and try out what no other pillow salesman has ever tried out ... to boldly sleep where no Evil OVerlord slept before!

Now some technical stuff: must of it I can't explain:

The error that occurred when using MGE is solved by a team of people from the government agency I work for (I work from home but the agency in question has been in the news a lot lately :) ...); appears they had made changes to Windows 7 Ultimate in order to allow some experimental software to be used. The experimental software is a form of AI running under Windows but in order to perform its tasks, this software can make changes to anything it wants, it has permissions like "Trusted Installer". When I ran MGE as Administrator, Morrowind crashed. By not running it as such, the problem was solved. Don't know with what else they tinkered, but mu clock is off by 75 minutes.

Things I can't explain: a sudden error in Quarl's Gothic Attire II: a file not found for dialogue type Greetings. Never had that error in any previous install, just now.
Sometimes an error would occur, usually in the sense of "can't find object or file, etc." Thus happened when I had activated too many mods at once in Wrye Mash without running Morrowind. By simply activating less, running Morrowind, activating some more, etc., all these errors ceased. Sometimes Morowind would give the error "Morrowind does not respond" after exiting the game; saved games were all OK however (in my previous install, my saved games would be on the fritz when I got that error while exiting). Finally, running Morrowind and/or Morrowind Launcher as Administrator; my resolution would revert back to 800x600 and other programmes would have their screens scrambled. I suppose this is the same aspect as with MGE; namely the AI software interfering with anything that tries to change (or has the possibility to change) the graphic settings.

Once more, thank you all ... and now, I'm off to try and play the main quest ... after 10 years.

Re: Morrowind has stopped responding

PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:00 pm
by Morgoth Bauglir
Nope, cried Victory too early.

Back to square one, Morrowind crashes.

Had to go to the old MS-DOS prompt to even delete the bloody thing, simply wouldn't uninstall anymore.

Going to try one more time, if that doesn't work, I'm throwing the ruddy thing out.

Thanks.

Re: Morrowind has stopped responding

PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 10:10 am
by Sandman101
First off this scares the hell out of me.
Morgoth Bauglir wrote:the government agency I work for (I work from home but the agency in question has been in the news a lot lately :) ...); appears they had made changes to Windows 7 Ultimate in order to allow some experimental software to be used. The experimental software is a form of AI running under Windows but in order to perform its tasks, this software can make changes to anything it wants, it has permissions like "Trusted Installer".

Secondly, I have a $300 tower i bought on line for my boys that has Win 7 on it. It plays MW, OB (with OBSE), FO3 and FONV.
My suggestion is to get a separate computer to play your games on.

Thirdly, a hammer isn't nearly enough. You need to install explosives next to the Hard Drives and Power Supplies. The Circuit breaker box too, wouldn't be a bad idea either.

Re: Morrowind has stopped responding

PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 10:37 am
by Jac
What Sandman said. If you have the money, MB, that would be the route to go. That software your agency installed is probably what's causing Morrowind and the third party programs to not work properly. With a "clean" system, it would be easier to diagnose the issue. With your current computer, it's more treating the symptoms and not the underlying problem.

Re: Morrowind has stopped responding

PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 12:55 am
by Morgoth Bauglir
You guys are right; gonna buy a new computer tomorrow Monday. Problems are cascading. Wrye Mash no longer works, Python no longer works, Morrowind Mod Manager can't find mods and Morrowind itself can't find essential .esm files.

Thanks for the advice.

Re: Morrowind has stopped responding

PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 9:31 am
by Elaura
Just remember when you get your new box, choose a drive and create a games folder outside of all default system folders.  You shouldn't have to mess with UAC or Admin rights if you start off right, but if you do, it's no big deal.

Modern games will still install some folders in My Documents, but because they were designed that way, they work fine.  If your OS is installed on an SSD, there are a lot of tutorials for moving system directories to larger, secondary HDDs, but the main thing to remember is that when a program asks for an installation path, you change it then and there.

Re: Morrowind has stopped responding

PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 11:07 am
by Morgoth Bauglir
Gonna have a local shop make me a customized tower; should be a one-time investment (and the company pays the bill) and I'm good for 5 to 7 years, maybe even 10.

Not going with SSDs as they produce too much heat and I already got a pretty big network here. Double graphics card and at least 2 big HDDs should do the trick I guess.

Any more hints are welcome. The local shop will most likely need several weeks to assemble all the pieces, so I have time to think if I want to add more stuff.

Company also wants me to try and figure out what is going wrong with the AI; this stuff shouldn't happen. More and more files start disappearing, that's not good. So I'll be tinkering around a lot with the dead Morrowind anyway. Might even consider learning python to figure out what went wrong there.

Thanks for the advice.

Re: Morrowind has stopped responding

PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 12:24 pm
by Elaura
Don't know where you got the idea SSD's produce any heat at all.  They are like internal USB sticks.  There are no moving parts, so no heat can be produced.

Jac and I each have 128GB SSD's for the OS and separate standard hard disk drives for programs, documents, music, pictures, etc.  SSD's speed up load times and take most of the wait out of Windows, but they have a limited number of writes, so they aren't good for storage.  I wouldn't be surprised if Microsoft started selling their OS on SSD's when the technology is more common and the price comes down a bit. They've already changed the Windows 8 disktools to recognize and accommodate SSDs.

As far as games go, you should research graphics cards.  Sometimes two less expensive cards in SLI work faster than one that is more than twice the price.

With Morrowind, keep in mind it is actually more CPU intensive and can only utilize one core; however, third party programs like MGE XE don't have these limitations and the future openMW doesn't look like it will either.

If you get more than 4GB RAM, which is likely, since RAM is fairly cheap these days, there is a 4GB patch that will actually patch the exe of old 32-bit .exe files to use more than 4GB of RAM.  Finally, when you shop for a motherboard, check into which CPU sockets are on the way out.  If you ever want to upgrade, you don't want to find out the CPUs that fit your board are out of production.

Re: Morrowind has stopped responding

PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 3:18 pm
by Denina
Morgoth Bauglir wrote:Finally, Morgoth Bauglir, the Evil Overlord of Pillow Sales can roam the countryside in search of new, fluffy pillows ... to collect, sort, and try out what no other pillow salesman has ever tried out ... to boldly sleep where no Evil OVerlord slept before!


I don't know the first thing about how to fix your issues, just wanted to say I laughed my head off when I read this bit. That cracked me up! :)

Re: Morrowind has stopped responding

PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 5:38 pm
by Morgoth Bauglir
Got a question on graphic cards; is a single 8 GB card enough or would 2 be better? So far, I got a dual CPU motherboard with 32 GB of RAM. The salesman in the local shop told me about SSDs producing more heat, he probably just got it wrong. Talking directly to the technicians now. SSDs appear to be very small though, I'm used to 2 TB HDDs; I intent to use the new computer as an additional backup system as well, it's either that or a NAS. I can fit 6 HDDs internally, so I'm safe there.

Bit afraid the dual 8GB graphic cards will produce a lot of heat; I just moved (ceiling came down in January, way too many books) and I haven't any airco here; these things are rather rare in Belgium and you need a building permit to place one which involves a public inquiry. The old graphic cards used to be small ovens; I used to put my soup on my tower casing to keep it warm, good old days when a 1 GB HDD made your system crash as Windows couldn't handle it.

Any advice?

Thanks.

Re: Morrowind has stopped responding

PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 6:45 pm
by Kiteflyer61
If your main priority for the machine is MW/OB/Skyrim, a single 8gb card will be plenty. If you want to play things like Crysis 3, and can afford it, A second card will help.

As for getting too much heat, make sure your case has extra fan ports and fill them all. Modern PCs create a lot of heat. The trick is to move that heat out of the case. :D




KF

Re: Morrowind has stopped responding

PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 9:42 pm
by Elaura
6 HDDs will reduce airflow considerably if they are internal.  Two graphics cards will do the same and generate a lot of heat.  Without a/c, I wouldn't run that setup unless I had a liquid-cooled radiator system.  No amount of fans will keep it cool with no airflow.

One way to reduce heat and clutter, as well as increase airflow, is with a modular power supply.  It will be more expensive than a standard PSU, but you can remove the cables that you aren't using, freeing up space inside your box.  As far as PSUs go, you want to make sure you have the power to run all those drives and however many graphics cards you plan to use.  Trust me, you want more than enough.

If you do decide to use 6 HDDs, a single SSD for your OS shouldn't be an issue, but it certainly isn't required and you probably wouldn't want to load more than one game on it at any given time.  The 256 GB drives are reasonable, but since we were buying two, Jac and I got the 128 GB SSDs.  After moving all the personal data, pagefile, and re-routing the temporary directories to my main HDD, I still have 80 GB free.  It just makes booting and shutdown a lot quicker.

My dream machine would be liquid cooled with two GPUs in SLI, so if you can, you will see the benefit.  I definitely know what you mean about the heat issue.  We don't have central a/c and with just one graphics card and only two HDDs, I have to keep my case open with a box fan blowing on it.

Re: Morrowind has stopped responding

PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:53 am
by sassman
Morgoth Bauglir wrote: Windows Restore is not possible due to an intricate safety facility at the network here which makes both backups and clones of entire HDDs, for that reason, repartitioning a HDD is also not an option. The network is currently operating 19 x 2 TB HDDs so I got enough room left for a fresh install in a "non-system directory".


I have a strong feeling that your network configuration is actually the problem.  The fact that you cannot create a "Fresh Clean Windows Installation" also means that you can "Never" have a fresh--or at least, pristine--installation of Morrowind.  The very first thing I would do is, break away--COMPLETELY!--from that restricted network control, either with a laptop, or by building a standalone machine that is NOT hooked up to your restrictive network.

The thing about a system that doesn't allow you to rip out the drives and/or reformat-and-reinstall is that they usually block other functionality that standalone games assume a given user has available on their dedicated gaming machines.

Morgoth Bauglir wrote:...the government agency I work for (I work from home but the agency in question has been in the news a lot lately :) ...); appears they had made changes to Windows 7 Ultimate in order to allow some experimental software to be used. The experimental software is a form of AI running under Windows but in order to perform its tasks, this software can make changes to anything it wants, it has permissions like "Trusted Installer".


Okay, when I read this, I thought, "Oh, My GOD that's what it is...you have an AI from a secret GOVERNMENT AGENCY running loose on that thing???"  :shock:  

Yeah, Morrowind, and (especially) MGE don't like to share power with hyper-secret-spy-software; I found that out myself--and that was just fighting with Norton Antivirus utilities!  NSA, CIA, and/or HOMELAND SECURITY???  I definitely see Morrowind running for the hills, man!  Do make sure that nice machine you're gonna buy doesn't fall into the hands of your "Agency's" A.I....   :eat me:

I mean...I DO love my country....  :usaflag: But, uuuuuhhhh...some of the people who run it are...lets just leave it at...SCARY.

Re: Morrowind has stopped responding

PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:51 pm
by Xar
SASSMAN!!!!


Oh and yeah, what they said^. Though if this agency is paying for it...... definitely go for liquid cooling and a dual crossfire or SLI setup. The current best graphics card you can get is an AMD Radeon HD 7990 (Some say that the Titan is better, could be, but I prefer AMD). If you can get two or three of those and one massive case (with as many fans as possible), you should be good, especially with liquid cooling. But definitely keep Skynet off the thing if you can help it. There's not much worse than a rouge AI running around playing god. Though if you're reading this, chances are that you already managed to have thing built.