The future of GHF and MMH

[Drakkmore]

The sad part of that is we get communications from time to time where a mod author asking for their work to be removed from Modding History. When such things occur we acquiesce  to the wishes of the author. Some times we get requests for these mods that have been removed from distribution, which saddens me because policy dictates we do as the modder wants with their work.
On the flip side of that sequence of events there are times where a mod author  will contact us looking for a copy of their mod from years back, where we then dig through the archives to see if we have the mod, then after sending the mod to the author, they ask us to make available all of their work that had been archived due to permissions given in the read mes of some mods.
We also have this nifty permissions page which all of our Modding History Stewards are supposed to consult before approving mods. The problem with this is that it does sometimes get updated, and mod authors some times add their wishes after a mod is uploaded, or change their minds about their permissions, and we don't get a PM when the permissions page is updated. As a result the mods don't often get updated according to the authors wishes.

and we don't get a PM when the permissions page is updated

Fliggerty this might be handy for those that remain Stewards after the upgrade to Modding History.

[dietbob196045]

The permission page is a must, it is very informative.  However I do see a lot of X's  where if reading the authors comments they should be check marks.
The biggest concern I see with authors is knowing that the mod has been uploaded to another site (from it's original upload) primarily for updating purposes and or bug reporting.  Logical and certainly viable in cases where mods are relatively new and/or the author is still active.  Understanding this is not every author of all the mods
on MMH For the most part (1 or 2 exceptions) they all want there mods available to be used.

And if I recall correctly during the time frame that Elric and PES shut down the word on the streets was to come upload/download to/from  MMH
Maybe that should be pushed in case Nexus decides to goes away      

Enjoy
Dietbob

[Gren still standing]

I am just so glad to find this site is still here!   This has always been the best forum, in my opinion, so for however long you can keep  it up, I will be grateful. Really, I just can't say it enough.  

[Leonardo]

The sad part of that is we get communications from time to time where a mod author asking for their work to be removed from Modding History. When such things occur we acquiesce  to the wishes of the author. Some times we get requests for these mods that have been removed from distribution, which saddens me because policy dictates we do as the modder wants with their work.
On the flip side of that sequence of events there are times where a mod author  will contact us looking for a copy of their mod from years back, where we then dig through the archives to see if we have the mod, then after sending the mod to the author, they ask us to make available all of their work that had been archived due to permissions given in the read mes of some mods.
We also have this nifty permissions page which all of our Modding History Stewards are supposed to consult before approving mods. The problem with this is that it does sometimes get updated, and mod authors some times add their wishes after a mod is uploaded, or change their minds about their permissions, and we don't get a PM when the permissions page is updated. As a result the mods don't often get updated according to the authors wishes.

I think that belongs in the past as in recent years a new type of mod permissions have seen the light and are now more often mentioned in a readme like what I did for my Skyrim Map Markers mod.

That's called Stewardship, which means that the original auhor have stated in a readme that the hosting site for the mod have gained mod permission from the original author upon retirement or the modder have left the community.

[Drakkmore]

Stewardship is all fine, and dandy Leo, but the fact remains that you gave permission for nod sites hosting your mods to assume said stewardship upon your retirement. This would still fall under the site following your wishes concerning your mods.
The fact is that a huge portion of the mods hosted at GHF/MH are from authors that have not bequeathed such permissions on their chosen mod hosting sites. Add to that most of those same mods were rescued from oblivion from mod hosting sites that have gone belly up, which did not have any form of stewardship granted to those now defunct sites. Which means that as per our policies, that we still have to follow the wishes of the mod authors. And as I said earlier there are times when mod authors come back from being away for years to give us express permissions to host their work. Also I hardly think that we can just assume the granted stewardship of mods rescued from sites as they become more obscure, and slip into oblivion, since that stewardship was never granted to us in the first place.
I think that we still need to have the permissions list, and we need to hold to the wishes stated through contacts from Mod authors, or the read mes, as our number one way to decide which mods are to be publicly available, and which are to be archived.
Modders stated wishes should never be put in the past, and sites should never assume "stewardship" with out first gaining that status explicitly from the author.

[Leonardo]

I know, but what I am trying to say here is that things have started to change in recent years whether we like it or not and one thing that has changed is the usage of stewardship for mods.

I am also aware of that I actually gave AFK Mods stewardship for my mods and that means AFK Mods can make my mods available to the community or not, even if I've retired or worse left the community (most likely I'm dead).

So, in reality AFK Mods can decide, if guests can download my mods or it will be available to members only.

[Merlord]

Hey Fliggerty,

With regards to reviving C&E, before you get too far, there's been discussions of creating a new rendition of a "rich experience" for Morrowind and someone on the community Discord has actually been toying around with a new website and hooking into MWSE 2.0 with it. Perhaps there could be some synergy between the two of you! It's Merlord on the Morrowind Modding Community Discord. He goes by the same name on the Nexus.

Just to elaborate on this a bit: I've been working on a Spring Boot application that will communicate with a user's active Morrowind session (currently via REST, but I might switch to WebSockets to save on overhead), to keep track of and display their game status. With MWSE 2.1 Lua scripts, we can gather any information we want about the game in real time. Player level, inventory, active plugins, quest status, location, creatures killed etc. There's also potential for automatic upload of screenshots, custom achievements (weekly challenges etc) and more. With Lua the sky is the limit. Well, in practice the limit is "how much time I'm willing to spend on it"  

If C&E really is making a comeback, perhaps it could make use of my application as a RESTful service that provides the real-time Morrowind data in place of the current save file system?

[LordXenophon]

I just want my mods to be seen and enjoyed. I don't really care where.

However, the main reason I chose GHF is because I can get this site to work, mostly. I can't get MMH to work.

If you can make MMH as functional as GHF and not make it so overcomplicated that my old computer can't handle it, then I am fine with migrating everything to MMH.

[HeyYou]

I know, but what I am trying to say here is that things have started to change in recent years whether we like it or not and one thing that has changed is the usage of stewardship for mods.

I am also aware of that I actually gave AFK Mods stewardship for my mods and that means AFK Mods can make my mods available to the community or not, even if I've retired or worse left the community (most likely I'm dead).

So, in reality AFK Mods can decide, if guests can download my mods or it will be available to members only.

Stewardship is more an 'addition' to permissions, than a replacement. It's the whole, "What happens after I am gone." thing. We have "Caretaker" over on nexus, where authors can put down in print, that X person/organization/website can take over their mods if they are gone for X amount of time, out of communication, etc. It's actually a great idea, and would have solved a host of issues for MMH, had it been implement about two decades ago. But, hindsight is 20/20, and no one had a clue just how popular mods were going to become, and what other things were going to come to pass because of them.

In any event, the situation being what it is...... "legally" MMH doesn't have permission to distribute mods that isn't detailed somewhere in the mod itself, or by consent from the author. Unfortunately, I suspect that that is going to mean that 80% of better, of the mods archived here, can't 'legally' be distributed.

In my view, that essentially defeats the purpose of MMH. Simply having mod archived, but, not available for download, is essentially the same as those mods 'being lost forever'...... I know that it is considered 'bad form' to distribute mods you don't have permissions for, but, in this case, where permissions are highly unlikely to be forthcoming..... I would be REAL tempted to make them available anyway, and if the original author comes along, and asks they not be distributed, take them down.

[Liarics]

I honestly had no idea this place had all these old MW mods, I didn't know mine were still hosted anywhere, let alone so many other good ones from PES.

[Drakkmore]

yeah we tried our best to save all of the mods we could from all of the old sites, as they were closing down. Of course we've tried to have our stewards go through the mods to find the ones with express denial of re-uploading in the readmes, but our stewards tend to get worn out after a while. We've got a LOT of mods, and a good portion of them need to still be sorted.
At any rate if you're okay with us hosting them we'd be real grateful for the permission.

[Leonardo]

In my view, that essentially defeats the purpose of MMH. Simply having mod archived, but, not available for download, is essentially the same as those mods 'being lost forever'...... I know that it is considered 'bad form' to distribute mods you don't have permissions for, but, in this case, where permissions are highly unlikely to be forthcoming..... I would be REAL tempted to make them available anyway, and if the original author comes along, and asks they not be distributed, take them down.

That's actually what purpose MMH has and here I posted what Fligg once said over 10 years ago soon after he built the first MMH site.

Old MMH - http://web.archive.org/web/200904060521 ... gerty.com/

[bastwren]

Though I doubt anyone here knows me, I have been around for a long time (since MW Summit), and have not only downloaded hundreds of mods since they first started appearing, I have also spent countless hours reading through the vast number of threads on various forums.  I am a reader, so even though I haven't been part of the discussion, I am familiar with the different personalities and discussions that have defined the MW modding community over the years.

I value both MMH/GHF immensely, and though I have only been a ghost here (I hate the term "lurker"), I feel I know some of you pretty well even if you don't know me.  I trust Fliggerty, Drakkmore, et al., and I know that Fliggerty has not made the decision to shut GHF down lightly.  My initial thought - until I read far enough down through the first post - was that MMH and GHF were being taken down, so I was at least relieved to see that MMH will continue.  I appreciate that a new iteration of the forum will appear, and that the contents of GHF will be archived.  It would be a real shame if the discussions, Q & A, etc. simply vanished.  So thank you, Fliggerty, for that.

Regarding permissions, I know that many modders want to have control over the uploading of their mods due to the fact that they plan to update them, and maintaining current versions of a mod uploaded to random sites is virtually impossible.  Also, after committing so many hours to a mod which becomes very personal to them, authors don't wish to see their mods depreciated by someone who degrades its quality or takes it in a direction contrary to the intention of the original author.  But then someone leaves the ES community and/or stops modding, the only site on which a certain mod could be found disappears, along with the mod.  Years go by, attempts to contact the author are unsuccessful.  Are those mods then simply gone?

I feel it is important that mods remain available to the community, as far as they can in accordance with modders' wishes.  Protocols do exist here by which mod authors can request their mod(s) be taken down or hidden.  Some modders when they leave the modding community change their permissions, but many do not.  Though I feel it is imperative that mod authors' wishes be respected, I also feel it is imperative that mods released to the public remain available.  I think that MMH strikes a balance between the two in as effective a way as can be accomplished.  I think it is also important to consider the nature of the site(s) to which mods are uploaded, i.e., MMH's purpose being to ensure that mods don't vanish upon closure of other sites (PES, etc.), and the fact that the mods published on MMH remain intact and in their original form; no one at MMH makes a claim that a particular mod is theirs nor alters the original mod.

I don't know...perhaps my opinion is not welcome; though I have modded quite a bit for personal use I have never released anything to the public, and I apologize if I am butting in where I shouldn't.  Fliggerty, I don't know if you can ever fully comprehend the level of appreciation that I - and I am sure many others - have for all of the time and work you have put into MMH/GHF, and I offer my profound gratitude to you, and to those who have assisted you.  Though I do not have the ability to do coding (yet), I do have an abundance of time; please contact me if there is any way in which I can be of help.  I would certainly be honored to have the chance to reciprocate in some small way for all of the help MMH/GHF has been to me.

Many, many thanks ~

bastwren (aka centime)

PS:  Thank you SO MUCH, Iolite, for your eloquent and beautiful post!  The farthest thing from a "bad joke", it was poignant, true and wonderful to read.  You have quite a gift.

[Leonardo]

I don't know...perhaps my opinion is not welcome; though I have modded quite a bit for personal use I have never released anything to the public, and I apologize if I am butting in where I shouldn't.

Anyone has the right to express their opinion about what they thinks is important and your post is indeed important.

I have also made a few mods for personal use, although not many as you seems to have.

Like you I also want to help in any way I can and I guess most people here, at least those who know me, knows what I can do and that's sort of mods in which I've done a lot in the past.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4115

[Jada]

Hello my friends! I personally look forward to what the Mod History site will have. I have seen a number of sites change way to much lately and miss the simple days of PES & co. It will be nice to browse some of the Old Guard again.

My you be Blessed with His Madness,
Jada

[cammera]

Hey, I don't discount that this has been brought up before, but wouldn't it be possible to upload the mods to the internet archive? I don't know their posture on game mods at all but considering the sheer volume and how well known morrowind is they might accept it.
That besides the options for the site itself to change and adapt, of course. As an archiving freak I don't think it's archived until it's archived in two or three places.

[Melchior Dahrk ...indomitable will might rid Morrowind of all its ills.]

I think that we still need to have the permissions list, and we need to hold to the wishes stated through contacts from Mod authors, or the read mes, as our number one way to decide which mods are to be publicly available, and which are to be archived.

"Archived" in your definition is equivalent to deletion as far as the public is concerned and provides no useful service whatsoever. It is naive to expect 100% of modders to leave behind a "Final Will and Testament" when they leave the community; the practical reality is that never happens. And the whole concept of "modder-granted stewardship" is ignorant. While it does happen, of course, those same modders rarely provide verbiage to indicate what should be done in the event that the mentioned site goes down - which is exactly why MMH was formed in the first place. As I said before, these mods were released to the public - and while I agree that modders wishes should be respected with regard to their permissions on editing the archive itself: where that archive is hosted is a tangential detail. If the modder didn't want the public to have access to it, then they shouldn't have released it in the first place. At the risk of sounding trite: it's easier to ask forgiveness than permission. If modders do come out of the woodwork and specifically ask for their mods to be removed from MMH (and I know they have before), then I can understand that wish being respected. But to base availability on wording provided in old ReadMes which are flawed in the ways I described above and written by modders who can no longer be reached for clarification or may not even still be alive is asinine.

[cammera]

Oy, talking in a chat I was reminded of something that may be more apropriate to bring up here, https://www.fopnu.com/
It's a bitorrent based sharing program, think a more modern Ares or Limewire. You give it folders which it hashes the files of, and then other people can download them from your computer (And from any other that has the same file, regardless of filename-- remember it hashes them.) without the need for intermediary servers, same as downloading any other torrent.
While this requires some more setup than just clicking a link on a website (Pretty trivial effort imho) it's a well future proofed method and doesn't need any money at all for people to contribute.  Just having personal mod archives and adding the folder to this program. If you're worried about it eating your internet bandwidth you can set limits to upload.

This has chat/forum features, with the stuff also carried via bittorrent protocol. It could overall be a good secondary alternative to have along with dedicated sites.

[Leonardo]

I assume Fliggerty keeps himself updated about phpBB, but if he isn't then I just read the announcement of phpBB 3.3.0.  A new major version, which makes me wonder if Fliggerty will still be using phpBB or has he other plans.

https://www.phpbb.com/community/viewtop ... &t=2534541

[Drakkmore]

IDK, but while carrying out my red shirt duties, I come across an error I have never seen before, I'll pass this along to Fliggerty when I pass along the error.

[Leonardo]

What error did you get?  



I also want to mention another issue and that's about what thread has the latest post shown in the forum index.

A quick question.  Why does this thread always show the latest post on the forum index despite for not having the latest post, except for my post, this post?  

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6953 (has the latest post before I mentioned it in this post)

This thread does not show the latest post in the forum index, instead it is the other thread.

[Illuminiel]

Soft sits the wind on Petal Bay
What flowered once... now drifts away
Their scent lingers on
Hope's sweet decay

Shadow traces forgotten name
Written stone... a glory vain
Their passion projects
Life's ending game

Soft sits the dusk on Petal Bay
Where flowers once... now drift away
And love lets go
Of dreams and day


Sending you all much love and gratitude for all your years of kindness, joy and dreams. Wishing you all much happiness.
From my heart
Illy

[No One]

To Fligg and my friends at GHF,

Glad to hear you are doing well! I came back on to see how the site was doing, as it was a very important place during my college years to go and talk about a very important game to me, Morrowind (my online username NoOneGHF to this day reflects that influence   ). Since then I have gotten married, got a Masters and will be going for my PhD in the near future. I hope all the other members are well! I will have a lot of memories of this place especially how helpful everyone was to answering modding questions. I hope that part of the community never goes away . Because of that, I am happy that Fligg is continuing on MMH. Hopefully, people will see this forum like the PC of Morrowind saw dwemer ruins: intriguing places with lots to learn and discover. As my last hurrah on GHF, I would like to do my signature joke: No One is going to miss Great House Fliggerty !

To the preserved ruins of the Great House Fliggerty:  

[Miserina]

Ah, a shame to see it go after so long, but nowadays a forum is almost an unusual format for this sort of thing anyway.  Seems like all the serious modding work for any game takes place in Discord now, which isn't a bad deal overall.

I've never left the community, though I go by a number of different names by now, and I can tell that this place is finally ready to be retired.  It probably has been for half a decade in truth, but in the end, I'm not sad to see it go.  It was good times all around, and I hope all my old friends from here who I didn't keep in touch with are doing well for themselves.  Two of those are still my closest friends today, and I'll be attending one of their weddings later this year.  From a hardheaded 12-year-old, I'm now on the far side of five years of military service working as a government contractor, GHF was always here in the background and I'll never regret the time I spent here or the great resource that this place was and is.

I look forward to any future format that Modding History takes.

[Maiqdabomb undefined]

First time I've stopped by in a while... such a shame that it may be my last.

I joined GHF at way too young an age to be given unfiltered access to the internet. Even then, as much of an immature pain in the rear I was, I always felt welcomed by this community and its members. My dad, who passed away last year, was the one who got me into MW and despite being "just a video game" it's been a very important part of my life ever since. Though I'm sure I don't need to explain that feeling to anyone here  

These days I've got a career and a fiancee, with so little time to dedicate to games or mods, but I'll always come back to MW eventually, as long as I still have a platform to play it on. I plan to get my future children into the game, though I'm sure to them I'll look like the crazy old man talking about the good old days of Pong and Breakout.

Okay, tangent over.

Fligg, I totally understand your decision here. As many memories as we all have with this forum, I agree with Miserina that it's time. I just hope that 1) Modhistory continues to survive as one of the last bastions of MW mods aside from Nexus, and 2) We old-timers don't fall out of touch. I have some of you added on Steam and I run the GHF guild in ESO, though I'm not online nearly as much as a guild leader should be. If this site goes under before the new one goes online, I hope we keep a channel of communication open.

Great to see Fligg, Drakk, No One, Leo, DG, and Miserina again. In case we don't speak again...

Thank you all for the great memories.